Tuesday, June 28, 2011

A Chat with the Tolkien Professor

My good friend and fellow Middle-earth Network cohort, Ian Speck, had a chance to chat Tolkien lore with non other than "The Tolkien Professor". I found his Q&A with the Professor refreshing and fun and pass it along for you to enjoy. Not only is Ian one of the most knowledgeable Tolkien fans I know, he is also a  producer here at Middle-earth Network and currently working on a top secret project for Middle-earth Network Radio (TBA). After reading, feel free to continue the debate on our comment section below.

Ian- On the night of June 24th, 2011, I was able to get a hold of Dr. Corey Olsen, more famously know as The Tolkien Professor, who graciously set aside some time for a this discussion at My Middle-earth.com, a [fantasy-based] social network that we have built at the Middle-earth Network.  Dr. Olsen also runs a website of his own containing free-to-listen-to lectures on all things Tolkien, and he is ranked as one of the top most-downloaded educational lectures on the internet.  The discussion pertains to a comic Youtube short, "How Lord of the Rings Should Have Ended" approximately two minutes in length.

Now I enjoy the short, but what bothers me is that there are those who seriously wonder why the Fellowship simply didn't fly on Great Eagles to Mount Doom, and see the whole story as being undone by this one thing. And you know what?  It's an interesting question, but it's one myth we can bust, if you pardon the expression.  I have my own arguments, but I was interested in what Dr. Olsen himself had to say. (For those unfamiliar with Tolkien a reference is made to The Song--the AinulindalĂ«--which, according to Tolkien's mythology epic, The Silmarillion, is the creation myth of the world in which Iluvatar (God) created the Ainur (angels) and taught them a Great Music which created the world, and also was the history of the world, as it were, from Creation to the Last Day, according to the will and designs of Iluvatar. Anonther reference is to the Eucatastrophe, a term Tolkien coined, which you can look at here.

So without further a due, My "Mini-interview" with the Tolkien Professor:

Ian-  Hello sir, I was wondering if you had a moment?
TolkienProf:  Sure!
Ian-  I was wondering if you were familiar with "How LotR Should Have Ended"? It's a goofy cartoon short where the Fellowship fly on eagles to Mt Doom.
TolkienProf-  The YouTube video? Yes
Ian-  I believe it's intent is comic, but there are some who believe this to be a genuine plot hole within the framework of The Lord of the Rings. I suppose I was wondering what your thoughts were as to that.
TolkienProf-  Well, there are several ways in which that could be answered. On its own level, I simply don't think it would have worked.
Ian-  Agreed.
TolkienProf-  I can't imagine that Sauron and the Nazgul wouldn't have noticed the eagles flying in, but that's not really the ultimate answer to the question. The problem comes with making "alternative stories" at all. A story that includes a desperate dash in on an eagle might, perhaps, work as a story, but that isn't the story that Tolkien was interested in telling (obviously).
Ian-  Yes, I have made this case to friends before--that is, the problem with alternate stories
TolkienProf-  When people start saying "why didn't this other thing happen?" they are basically writing new stories and that's fine, potentially, but what sense is there in asking why T didn't write a different story than he wrote?
Ian-  I just know someone who wonders why they didn't "take the simpler approach".
Ian- Right.
TolkienProf- And there's a third level on which to address this: the "plot hole" angle.
Ian-  I thought of a couple counters, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.
TolkienProf-  That is, is this genuinely a problem for T's story as he chose to tell it? Is it an inconsistency (which the "hole" argument suggests)? My answer hinges on the nature and purpose of the eagles. They are very important, and they are not simply transportation.
Ian-  Yes, I agree, they are not a taxi service.
TolkienProf-  They act, in almost every case, as a traveling eucatastrophe, the instruments of the Valar and even of Iluvatar himself in the events of Middle-Earth. If the Valar wanted to help in the destruction of the Ring, heck, they wouldn't even need the eagles. They could have just vaporized the Ring, or whatever.
Ian-  A good point.
TolkienProf-  But they don't, and Elrond talks about how and why he knows they won't. What people who want the eagles to fly to Mordor are asking for is for the entire story to be short-circuited by a huge Deus ex Machina. That's really what people want? And THAT would be massively inconsistent with how [Tolkien] has depicted the Valar and Iluvatar throughout his mythology.
Ian-  One thing I would say is that it was not ordained in the Song that it should end in such a way.
TolkienProf-  Yes, sure. That ending would be wildly inconsistent with the whole, larger story that Tolkien was telling and developing throughout his lifetime, not only in the LOTR, but in the Silmarillion material.
Ian-  Right.
TolkienProf- When people are thinking only "what would be easiest?" they are not really thinking of the story at all and as I said, that isn't easiest anyway. "God unmakes the Ring, destroys Sauron, and undoes all evil everywhere in the blink of an eye" is really much easier still, and simpler. But that isn't the world that we live in or that Tolkien wrote about or that anyone would actually want to read about, either. :)
Ian- No indeed. I would also add, for the sake of argument, that if such a path were taken, there would be several problems. You've named a couple, one being that how would Sauron NOT notice the approach?
TolkienProf-  Oh, yes.
Ian-  I also have feeling that they wouldn't make it past the Mountains of Shadow.
TolkienProf-  And the movie shots of the eagles beating off the Nazgul in the last battle are very unrealistic, I think.
Ian-  But I thought they did engage the Nazgul, or does memory fail me? If they could stand up to dragons then why not fell beasts, or does the Deadly Fear come into play?
TolkienProf-  Yes, and Gwaihir is not Thorondor, either
Ian-  (A quick rewind, Dad said with regards to the original question: "asking why the fellowship couldn't fly on eagles is like asking why does God let babies die?" So I thought it was interesting he said that when he has no clue as to the contents of this discussion.)
TolkienProf-   Yep. He's thinking in exactly the same direction I am, there.
Ian-  But getting back on track, let's assume they pull off this crazy task, there would still be several problems (again this is for argument's sake). One is Boromir, I don't think he would be free of his desire for the Ring. He would never have died redeemed.
TolkienProf-   Yes, that's a good illustration. It would be a very different, and infinitely poorer story.
Ian-  Indeed.
TolkienProf-   Okay, I've got to go, unfortunately.
Ian-  Hey, that's fine, thanks for your time, this was great!
TolkienProf-   No problem! I enjoyed it. Good night!
Ian-  Good night!

Ian- You can tell in places where the conversation overlaps a little, but the whole thing was a blast.  Another thing that was cool (as mentioned in the discussion) was that [my] Dad happened to walk by and throw in his two cents, and it was amazing how well it matched the discussion we were already having.  We finally wrapped up around midnight.

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